Hi Tommy,
I spent 13 years on the West coast of Florida, Tampa/ST Petersburg area. Also known for being the Lightning capital of the world. As such, became quite familiar with the effect fluctuating power levels had on various equipment.
During a Tech show, the power went out and we continued our demo's for over six hours with two Tripp Lite UPS's. After that, I swore by the Tripp Lite line and eventually became a dealer.
Spikes and outages were handled with flying colors. Their only short fall was line conditioning.
When a sudden draw causes a voltage drop that approaches 'Brownout' conditions, the UPS actuation threshold didn't always get reached. For some systems, that threshold was much more critical. When these were ID'ed, the remedy was a 'Line Conditioner'.
Think of it as a UPS thats always on, always charging. It outputs a regulated constant flow/ No spikes, no dips.
I feel this is your solution. However, proving it would require one being installed.
Perhaps, asking the utility company if they could check the power being supplied to the phone system for spikes/dips would be proof enough. They were happy to do this in Tampa.
Hope this helps,
Mike
Hello again Tommy,
No I didn't work at Nortel. But I think I may have used their services.
Were there two brothers that did the cabling for them? Randy and ......Randy's brother (If it's Mike I am embarrassed)? Any way I think they revamped our systems at Numerica Financial. In the big green glass building in downtown Clearwater. Expanded to three non-contiguous floors out of the nine. Data, phones, Huge UPS, Halon, you name it. But back to you.
Yes, the Line conditioner would be upstream from the UPS. Ironically, when active, the UPS is an excellent line conditioner. But it's straight through when on standby.
For whatever reasons, certain equipment is more susceptible to the effect of high voltage discharges in the immediate area. The mission is to prove the cause without spending the money. Or at least as little as possible.
From your comment, my first target would be the cabling proximate to the welders. Anything near them needs to be shielded. If possible relocate the welders, they have a cumulative effect, so even one could make a difference.
Next, tech support on the phone system. Ask for the lead tech. The one who has the most experience with this box. A tie for first place is the one with the most experience with installation/maintenance/troubleshooting in businesses with a similar environment. Did similar problems get reported. How did they fix them.
I have contacted sales managers to get them to connect me with the right people.
"Hi, I'm Mike, a friend of mine is recommending your system for my shop, he says it has only one problem. I was wondering if I could talk to someone about what causes it before I commit",
I know, weak, but you get the idea.
Exhaust the low cost/no cost posibilities first.
You might inquire to the power company or Norstar about loaning you a conditioner for a week or two. Just to help isolate or rule out the problem.
Small world
Mike
Hi Tommy,
The shielded cable is still Cat-V twisted pair, but it also has several layers of foil around the pairs to reduce the effect local environment can have on the signals they're carrying.
If you had a radio going near the welder, you'd hear static, interference. The shielding blocks that type of interference.
It no biggie if your crimping them. Same process. peel the shield back too. No ground on RJ-11,14, 45
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You have pretty much eliminated the issue with sag with the UPS, there are only two things left that you can do.
Put a line voltage graphing monitor on the output side of the ups, to make sure it is catching everything.
The other thing, and I tend to lean towards this is the high frequency that is coming from the welders and entering the phone system via another route. It could be entering the power cord of the Nortstar. You can get some BX cable and run the power cords through it for extra shielding.
BX is flex conduit it looks like spiral wrapped pipe. You need to ground both ends. The reason that it is not hitting the mac computers is that they can deal with the frequency. Also what about the harmonics coming down from the punchdown block or through the hard wire phone cables?
When you looked at the voltage, you probably did not see the high frequency that is present when these welders fire. In Europe they really hate the welders because of the frerquency issues.
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As a quick test,can you get hold of a short length of 14 or 16 AWG gauage copper wire?
Connect the chassis of the Norstar to the Tripp Lite-600 DB9 serial lock nut /or chassis and to the center screw of the wall outlet screw.
This will rule out ground differential problem.
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YOU SHOULD WORK WITH your IT folks at your shop on the following.
Some company is very sensitive on bring addition equipment/software into the server room.
If you have a spare old PC and a DB9 serial cable then give the UPS monitor software a shoot.
Info ===> here
Latest Tripp Lite monitor software ===> HERE
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During non-business hour do a power failure test just to make sure your Tripp Lite TE-600's battery is still in tip top connection.
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Please post more information on the comment window.
I will follow up on it.
I have to ask. Are the DSU/CSU and lease line box also protected?
Next time the PBX box got hang.......check the Adtran (or similar FT1 DSU/CSU and see are the hang also before power cycle them.
The surge can also enter via the lease and DSL/POTS lines
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Tripp Lite data line add-on ==> HERE
To solve this problem you will require so assistant from the building manager and the folks who ran the construction project.
I'm going to give you some keywords below and I hope you can relay the information to the building manager.
I hope you can do your part by adding the Tripp lite power monitor software to prove and document there is no surge coming though the power end. (see free download link from my last post)
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Note for the building manager.
On the lowest (front) portion of the building,datacom folk call it an "underground".
It's the entry point of all the voice and data lines.
You can identify this entry point by the 110 punch down blocks.
See link ==> HERE or just Google 110 punch down block pictures.
There are low voltage POTS,DSL,Lease and T1 lines going to the tenants.
You can Google for more information on VERTICAL CABLE.
These low voltage cable are ran on twisted pair cables and they are not shielded.
MIG welder can operate up to 5000 watt. It can generate cross talk and surge to the data trunk (VERTICAL CABLE).
Please ID these trunks and let the construction to keep a fair distance to these lines while working with the MIG welder.
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You can also compare your problem with the other tenants within the building and see do they have similar problem.
On the line side,you can phone in trouble ticket(s) AT&T or you local carrier.
There can terninate your line easily to different trunk in the central office.
Centeral Office (CO) has equipement to monitor voltage spink and line signal quality
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The data between your DTE and CO's DCE can be monitor.
Just open a trouble ticket and they will WORK HARD to prove it's not the CO problem.
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Since your boss does has budget to slove this problem so reaching out to the building manager,communitate carrier and power company is your only choice.
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Once you get the new IT budget get few communicate line surge protectors for your DSL,POTS,T1 and FT1 lines
Low end Tripp Lite TE-600 use simple MOV (Metal Oxide) or neon to take on surge it does has a service life of about 5 years.
That's why the leasing UPS company has warrenty up to 5 years.
Check your shipping tag of your Tripp Lite TE-600.
I would use an extra APC or Tripp lite power strip before the Tripp Lite TE-600 to provide additional protection.
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The Norstar CICS doen not have a lug for a chassis ground, it is grounded through the groung prong of the power cord. We have tested the ups and it is good as far as holding up the system when power is removed. Once again I believe the mig welders may be causing a harmonics problem in the building no proof but suspected. Another thing that bothers me is the fact that a dsl modem and small 6 port router is plugged into same ups and the three MAC computers isn building have no issues.! We have looked for voltage on the ground lug and neutral og the power outlet and there isnt any also the voltage at receptacle is correct.
I need to know how to prove to the building owner that the problem with the phone system is
coming from harmonics due to the 3 mig welders in the building.
Thanks Mike
I had done considered this but let me give you a little more info. I do have a Tripp Lite TE-600
UPS on the system. I believe I would plug the ups into a LS 604 Tripp Lite line conditioner, correct?
The only nagging problem in my head is that the dsl modem and router plus 6 port switch is also
plugged into the UPS and not having any issues. The customer is using MAC computers and we also ran the Cat 6 cables for these and Cat 5e for the telephones. Some of this wiring (unshielded)
is out on the floor closer to the mig welders than the system itself. Any thoughts would be greatly
appreciated! Also you would not be the Mike who used to be Nortel Tech Support for HSI in Tampa
before they went out of business would you? If so I used to talk to you a lot a few years ago!
Hello Mike
Thanks again for the info I will plug the ups into the line conditioner and if that doesn't stop the problem I will rerun my cables if I do have to go to a shielded cable which I have never installed do I need to ground both end of the cable?
Thanks
Tommy
Sorry what is bx cable??
Thanks
Tommy
Thanks to Mike 258. I will give this a shot!
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